The regulative priciniple: Illicit physical relations

[gopalgovind108]

I am practicing Krishna Consciousness since last three years. Recently I got married.
We have four regulative principles i.e. no meat eating, no gambling, no intoxication and no illicit physical relations.
We say that physical relations outside marriage is illicit...next level to that is physical relations except for procreation is also illicit.

I want to know if one has a desire to have physical relations (within marriage) and he/she is not able to control it what should be done?

What is the tolerance level acceptable?
Please answer....

[backtohome]

Thank you very much for your honest and genuine sincerity. The question you have asked is most important not only for you but for many others.

You have mentioned that * outside of marriage is illicit, but kindly note that according to the sublime bhakti yoga system so carefully handed down to us by the great acharyas who have guided the Vedic civilization for millions of years, * inside of marriage is also illicit if it is not for the purpose of procreation and is more than once a month.

Therefore as an honest, responsible gentleman you should refuse to accept diksha until you are able to get over this animal propensity. I understand that this is too embarrassing to tell your seniors. Therefore you may simply refuse initiation on the grounds that you are not yet qualified. Otherwise your illicit * will force your future spiritual master to suffer sinful reactions.

In our Hare Krishna movement no one should take diksha unless they have been strictly following all the regulative principles for at least one year and they are solidly promising to do so for the rest of their lives. Otherwise initiation within our society will become degraded into a cheap, show bottle phenomenon with no potency to deliver the disciples from birth and death. And gurus who allow such initiations will be dragged down to material life by the sinful reactions they receive from their disciples. If such things become the official or unofficial established standard in ISKCON, our movement will be completely ruined following the pathway of so many other great spiritual traditions which gradually become corrupted by material sense gratification. So we cannot and will not allow this to happen to Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON.

So even if you have to wait twenty or thirty years for your initiation, you must not take initiation until you are able to strictly follow our regulative principles. It is better to be an honest non-initiated member of ISKCON than to be a charlatan initiated disciple who is heaping sinful reactions upon his Guru Maharaja.

Sankarshan Das Adhikari

[Mahesh Kumar Gandhi]

Hare Krishna Sankarshan Das Adhikari Prabhuji, Dandavat Pranam.
With due humble respect for you I diagree with you on the following points.
Having relation with wife is not a sinful action. Getting entangled in relations will hold a person's journey back to God Head. Our Ved Shastras have described Marriage as a pious relationship. How can you describe it as a SINFUL relation. You should say that engaging in such relationship delays a person's journey back to God Head. What you have mentioned Once in a month relationship - this is the topmost level a person is expected to achieve. Here I disagree. When two persons are binded by Vedic Pious Mantras in to a relation of husband and wife it is but natural they will have relationship. What differs is the propensity of relations. Some persons can limit but some cannot. What a saint do is slowly bring persons out of pasion of such relations. As and as person's affection for Lord Krsna increases, he/she starts losing interest in each other. It is said in our shastra's also "Bahu Janmanam Janmanam Anto......" Excuse me if say so - You yourself were not elevated overnight to the topmost level of the regulations of ISKCON. You must have achieved the level after some time. But suppose if someone (Initiation Guru) told you of this highlevel things just when you started tilting towards Krsna, would have made you afraid of strict regulations and might be you turned back and said good bye to ISKCON. But everyone is not so strong like you.
Even Shrila Prabhupaad didn't say anything to the Hippies of America initially. He was tolerating them. After over a year when hippies started following the reules and regulations unawaresly did he tell them about the rules. In my opinion Krsna's love and affection does the magic. A person need to chant HK Maha Mantra and rest is done by Krsna himself. You probably have forgotten Chaitanya Mahaprabhu asking two sinful men Jaghaai and Madhaai only to utter Lords name once and it was because confident that Krsna will upgrade them to the highest level. I do not mean any offense to you in any manner whatsoever, but in ISKCON i do see so many Grihastha Devotees who are not truely faithful to these rules and openly disregard them. But still Krsna is upgrading them gradually with caution that they are not afraid and remain with him. They do not run away from Krsna.
If inadvertantly I have hurt you Prabhuji, please accept my obeisances. Once again Dandavat Pranam.

[npawar]

Hare krishna,
pamho:agtsp;
I am agree with Sankarshan das adhikari prabhu that 4 regulative principles should be followed strictly.also once in month it is sufficient to have relation as i understand this is standard in case if one not able to follow he can try for some time without taking initiation.Guru is merciful even we don't take diksha gradually will become purify.
Why we have to take diksha if we don't want to be serious, let practise for more time krishna knows everthing if we are sincere (sincere desire to go back home back to godhead) he will give us such mind that will not get attracted for lusty objects.
We should not see how prabhupada gave initiation to hippies he is shaktyavesh avataar of lord he had that potency, i believe we have to follow what he has written and told in his books and not pointing some incident which is favorable to our own conditions.
we should not imitate great person but we should follow teachings of great person.
please forgive me i am not good in expressing my views in polite way.but i really point unless and untill one is not good in swimming he should not try to cross ocean he should practise in pond or swimming pool or river and become expert else it is danger for him.

Regards,
Nilesh

[harihari]

Hare Krishna,

Words spoken by a bonafide disciple of Srila Prabhupada are as good as spoken by Prabhupada himself. They should be accepted without any consideration. So the question of agreeing or disagreeing does not arise here. Rejection, partial or total, of any of these teachings, on whatever basis it may be, would only drag one on the path of self degradation(falldown).

[deepak.mehdiratta108]

Hare Krishna, PAMHO, AGTSP!

Dear Mr Mahesh Kumar Gandhi,


You said to Sankarshan Das prabhuji : "You yourself were not elevated overnight to the topmost level of the regulations of ISKCON. You must have achieved the level after some time. But suppose if someone (Initiation Guru) told you of this highlevel things just when you started tilting towards Krsna, would have made you afraid of strict regulations and might be you turned back and said good bye to ISKCON"

and

"You probably have forgotten Chaitanya Mahaprabhu asking two sinful men Jaghaai and Madhaai only to utter Lords name once and it was because confident that Krsna will upgrade them to the highest level"


With all due respects, i want to say that blaspheming lord's pure devotees is very very dangerous and a
spiritual suicide. It will completely ruin our progress in Krishna consciousness. So not in our dreams should we pass blaspheming judgements to Srila Prabhupada's disciples.

Also there is a saying "Atma Manyate Jagat", that is if a person himself is not able capable to doing something or following something, then he thinks that others also are like him, that is he thinks that others are also not capable to doing or following that thing. I kindly beg you to correct such mentality.

Your servant,

Deepak

[Mahesh Kumar Gandhi]

Shri Deepak Mahdirattaji,
I have no intention of blaspheming any body. I know about Nama Aparadha. I believe this Iskcon Desire Tree Forum is a platform for healthy discussion. If you say I have no right to discuss on what the learned Guru has said. and accept his words as it is, then what is the use of this Forum ? By a healthy discussion we clear our doubts, misunderstandings about facts of life, and gain our knowledge, interaction acts as a booster for Krsna consciousness. It is not my mentality to believe that everybody has habits like me, or every body is me.

For your information I am 61 now and I and my wife are living like bramhacharies since over 20 years now. I do not have any illicit relations either inside the marriage or outside marriage. I don't drink, gamble, pure vegetarian without garlic and onion. I am doing 60 rounds of Nama japa daily. I getup in the morning at 3:00 in the morning. I spend my all the time in hearing reading about Krsna, attending Bhagwat Katha, writing discussions in various Krsna and Iskcon web sites.

So please Sir, don't worry about my mentality, it is OK, and I want you to excuse me if my lines gave you a different message like blaspheming the Guru. However it never will be my intention.

Coming to the point of discussion : Jeeva entangled in Maya Devi's clutches has to be handled properly and with ultimate care because the Jeeva is very fragile and shy to come back to God Head. Guru should guide the jeeva about what is good and what is bad. Just pursuade him to take Krsna's Name Japa, and Krsna will do the rest. That is what Shrila Prabhupada did with the hippies. He never asked them to follow four rules till they were not engaged in Krsna Nama Japa. Only when they were ready for Deeksha did Prabhupada put his conditions, and informed them that they had become vegetarian without there being aware of it. That is the way to lure Jeeva Back to God Head. If you put strict conditions and presurize the jeeva will shy away frightened by conditions.

[kalanidhidas]

Boy! Do I feel proud of belonging to ISKCON! The discussions reveal simultaeneously the great heights that we must all aspire to achieve and the seemingly insurmountable obstacles that all must cross. It also reveals the compassion that devotees have for one another and the careful and expert way they try to rectify wrong notions and understandings without offending a devotee. While we need to be cautious not to cause offense, we have to somehow render our sincere and humble services to a misguided person.Life is continuous learning. May Guru and Krishna give us the intelligence and discrimination.

I pray to the Lord and all vaishnavas to keep me in their shelter for all times to come.

Srila Prabhupad Ki jay.

[Dasanudas]

Hare Krsna,

Dandavat Pranams.

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

All Glories to Sri Guru & Gaurango!

I am all 'Yes & Ditto' with what Kalanidhi Prabhu has said. Its wonderful, beyond imagination and perception, in having to be a part of ISKCON, the great association of wonderful Vaishnavs. To Vaishnavs discussing a point so carefully is in itself purifying, specially their wonderful mannerisms.

As for the discussion, I completely agree that physical relations have to be only once a month in the institution of marriage. And if I am not wrong, it is only in Grahastra Ashram i.e. till the age of 50. Mating life is the shackle by which a living entity is entangled in this material world. It is also the reason why he goes on and on taking birth again & again. So let us resolve to atleast give it up completely right in this life.

How to achieve that, is the big question. But I dont think it is difficult when we properly execute the orders of Srila Prabhupada, Our Guru Maharaj and the Vaishnavas. If our sadhana is proper, on a daily basis, there should be no problem. (Ofcourse easier said than done.)

One could pray sincerely to Sri Sri Gau Nitai to help one overcome their problems. (Everyone has some problem or the other. Somewhere I heard, the whole struggle daily is to chant our 16-rounds properly and follow the 4-regulative principles sincerely.)

Also by dancing with devotees in kirtan, by embracing devotees, by the touch of devotees this propensity of sensual physical relations is gradually subdued and purified.

Please forgive my offenses & Please give me your blessings.

Hare Krsna.